View Full Version : Letting the smoke out
The Nutty Professor
10-23-2007, 08:50 PM
cowboy I was trolling through Ebay as usual when I ran across a F1 header that was a pure work of art (Photo #1) This was when I realized we really haven't talked much about performance headers and exhaust. I don’t know how much can be gained from a well engineered and fabricated pipe but it has to bring something to the party. Most of our conversation consist of “Gut the pipe of most everything and you’re in”. There has to be more to it and maybe if we bounce ideas back and forth someone will run with it and “Git er done”. I put up a few exhaust photo’s to show what we can learn from somewhere else. Look outside the box and let us see what ya got?
similar to a carburetor, bigger hole = more air out faster = more power
smaller hole = less air out slower = less power
certain headers are designed for certain applications... but one things the same all the runners have to be the same length because all the cylinders have to be pushing the same amount of air through the same amount of pipe for the same amount of power, thus even power flow throughout the cycle....this applies to cars more...
rednek01
10-23-2007, 09:50 PM
well I have plans to make a custom exhaust once I get my bike so I'm already cooking ideas up in my head.rock2
schofell84
10-24-2007, 07:39 AM
wrong.
smaller = more air in alot of cases.
THIS (http://www.sgr-usa.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_54&products_id=276&osCsid=ca85c3da7b62bdd0b8380698cdd3eb7f) is what i consider to be the best deal on exhausts for our bikes. note the steps from smaller diameter to larger. it has a lot to do with velocity and resonance. exhaust manufacturers are switching over to hydro formed tubes to get certain shapes out the tubing un-achievable by welding. my personal faves- micron serpents.
rednek01
10-24-2007, 07:49 AM
wrong.
smaller = more air in alot of cases.
THIS (http://www.sgr-usa.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_54&products_id=276&osCsid=ca85c3da7b62bdd0b8380698cdd3eb7f) is what i consider to be the best deal on exhausts for our bikes. note the steps from smaller diameter to larger. it has a lot to do with velocity and resonance. exhaust manufacturers are switching over to hydro formed tubes to get certain shapes out the tubing un-achievable by welding. my personal faves- micron serpents.
exactly stepped up tubes! The scavenging effect (sp?) I dont know if that will work on a single piston engine but I know it helps with multiple piston engines.
schofell84
10-24-2007, 07:55 AM
it will work on any internal combustion engine... diesel, rotary, single cylinder, its even the same principle used for expansion chambers in 2 strokes, just applied differently.
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 07:57 AM
wrong.
smaller = more air in alot of cases.
THIS (http://www.sgr-usa.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_54&products_id=276&osCsid=ca85c3da7b62bdd0b8380698cdd3eb7f) is what i consider to be the best deal on exhausts for our bikes. note the steps from smaller diameter to larger. it has a lot to do with velocity and resonance. exhaust manufacturers are switching over to hydro formed tubes to get certain shapes out the tubing un-achievable by welding. my personal faves- micron serpents.
Leave it to schofell. I was wondering when or who was going to pick up on the steps in the pipe. Or have we had this conversation before thinking_smilie Hey Scho are you playin' with an old mans mind wave_finger LOLOLOL I was also wondering how the yamaha Exup system would work with a single or does the step system achieve the same thing?
schofell84
10-24-2007, 08:02 AM
doesnt the exup system just restrict the exhaust at low speeds then open up at higher rpm's? this is an old trick if it is the case and is obsolete with newer technology. alot of companies have the same thing in principle, just called different things.
what in the hell is the 4th picture? haha
you should check out the new motogp exhausts too, rossi is even running a silencer@!
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 08:28 AM
doesnt the exup system just restrict the exhaust at low speeds then open up at higher rpm's? this is an old trick if it is the case and is obsolete with newer technology. alot of companies have the same thing in principle, just called different things.
what in the hell is the 4th picture? haha
you should check out the new motogp exhausts too, rossi is even running a silencer@!
Yes it does restrict and it very easy to tune just to a throttle opening. It can be mechanical with no electronics that's one reason I thought it would be easier to work with. The 4th photo is the RC51 Just threw a bike in with pipes you could see? Rossi says the bikes are to loud and using a silencer doesn't cut any power just the sound level or at least the one they use.
wrong.
smaller = more air in alot of cases.
THIS (http://www.sgr-usa.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_54&products_id=276&osCsid=ca85c3da7b62bdd0b8380698cdd3eb7f) is what i consider to be the best deal on exhausts for our bikes. note the steps from smaller diameter to larger. it has a lot to do with velocity and resonance. exhaust manufacturers are switching over to hydro formed tubes to get certain shapes out the tubing un-achievable by welding. my personal faves- micron serpents.
i do more about cars... but smaller= more air? how does that work? you try breathing out of a little, then try breathing out of a big tube then come and tell me smaller= more air. back pressure gives you more torque(usually)... but less HP... that is the point of a header is get the air out FASTER, and in higher volume...
quick and fast are two different things. (quick gets you moving) (fast keeps you going) bigger pipe= more air is able to escape from the cylinder FASTER. I didnt say more power... i said more HP, less torque.
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 09:36 AM
I think were schofell is going is that with motorcycle intake they've found smaller intakes cause increased air speed. It's a venturi effect I think. I first read about it in an article about New York skyscapers. When the wind cames off the water into the city its funneled between the buildings. This pushed the air molecules together causing the effect and speeding up the air flow. Simplistic answer but I was trying to keep it short. dunno
whats his face was talking about exhaust...well whats his face kinda pssst me off, his stepped up header or what eves is a BIGGER tube.......... angry_red but im ok now i think... machinegun b_s
swheels
10-24-2007, 10:20 AM
Well i know for a fact what works for me.And i'm sticking to it.The results was shocking but it was proven during my test runs.thumbsup2
what works for you sweel? smokin_pimp
similar to a carburetor, bigger hole = more air out faster = more power
smaller hole = less air out slower = less power
certain headers are designed for certain applications... but one things the same all the runners have to be the same length because all the cylinders have to be pushing the same amount of air through the same amount of pipe for the same amount of power, thus even power flow throughout the cycle....this applies to cars more...
wrong. smaller opening = higher velocity of exhaust gases.
on my bike i run an open header when i race. it gives me a nice little boost in performance. however it is REALLY loud.
swheels
10-24-2007, 11:54 AM
An underslung exhaust.I noticed a big difference once i got rid of the J style header.Oh alright anything over the stock style header will be an improvement.As i was thinking about it.....thinking_smilie...It occurred to me that,the only thing i had to compare my custom exhaust to was the modded stock can and stock header.speechless33banghead Well the setup i'm running truly works great for me as far as i know.
X7rocks
10-24-2007, 12:01 PM
that picture with the DOHC motor that pipe must be specifically made for it
some are like that for the hondas
wrong. smaller opening = higher velocity of exhaust gases.
on my bike i run an open header when i race. it gives me a nice little boost in performance. however it is REALLY loud.
what is it with dumb kids... higher velocity does not mean more air! thats what ive been saying the whole time! you run open exhaust thats the widest pipe you can get. smaller hole= more torque because of the velocity gain! its less air getting out! its putting somewhat of a load on the piston which forces it down harder and faster... when the piston is moving at higher speeds then it needs less back pressure because your all ready moving! thus you need a bigger pipe at high rpm. it depends what you want. low end or high end. wave_finger its simple the more air and fuel you get in AND OUT the more power you make. with small engines it becomes very tricky because you need a little back pressure, just the right amount to much is bad too little is bad. just to get you going once your up in th rpm's you dont need it. like you said open exhaust right.
you shouldnt tell people there wrong like you kids do its rude! especially when you dont even know!
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 12:44 PM
what is it with dumb kids... higher velocity does not mean more air! thats what ive been saying the whole time! you run open exhaust thats the widest pipe you can get. smaller hole= more torque because of the velocity gain! its less air getting out! its putting somewhat of a load on the piston which forces it down harder and faster... when the piston is moving at higher speeds then it needs less back pressure because your all ready moving! thus you need a bigger pipe at high rpm. it depends what you want. low end or high end. its simple the more air and fuel you get in AND OUT the more power you make. with small engines it becomes very tricky because you need a little back pressure, just the right amount to much is bad too little is bad. just to get you going once your up in th rpm's you dont need it. like you said open exhaust right.
you shouldnt tell people there wrong like you kids do its rude! especially when you dont even know!
OK Doc I got yea small may be good for intake but exhaust is a totally different ballgame. Back pressure can slow down the gain's you made on intake. Didn't think about it like that. Like eating...good food in-C*** out. You don't want any restriction there at all (OK 4 moon time) moon1moon1moon1moon1
OK Doc I got yea small may be good for intake but exhaust is a totally different ballgame. Back pressure can slow down the gain's you made on intake. Didn't think about it like that. Like eating good food in C*** out. You don't want any restriction there at all (OK 4 moon time) moon1moon1moon1moon1
thank you! i dont mean to brag but i am an ASE cert mechanic, and am graduating this year with an AS in auto tech... my info is more valid about cars but engines are engines especially when its a 4-stroke!
redryderaus
10-24-2007, 01:11 PM
If you look closely at the MotoGP bikes you'll see some with reverse-cone megaphones and some with stepped pipes. So the "jury is out" on exhaust design even in the top class. thinking_smilie
Cheers,
red
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-24-2007, 02:26 PM
hey doc, im a mechanic too and ive been in a shop for 9 yrs now
what you say is true for regular cars
in full race applications, things change from what me and you are used to
they have pipes that act like a turbo all on its own from the suction/vacuum they make
keep your mind open
yes but the pipes are BIGGER not smaller...
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-24-2007, 02:48 PM
we are dealing with one cylinder here
no uneven issues
its about basically pulling the exhaust out of the engine, pipe size is to only achieve that, small or big
big pipes are more eye appealing so they are more prevelant than the somewhay ugly race pipes
its the shape that gives it the velocity, every aspect of an upgraded exhaust is that its bigger to allow more air to escape faster.................schofell & #89 or what ever dont know sh*t
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 02:55 PM
Trying to keep my head in the game...Doc I think in a step system the first section of the pipe speeds up the beginning of the exhaust pulse. It pulls the gases behind out into a larger section of pipe and then into a third larger section. I think both principles are used. Small part to speed the molecules and large section to give them some place to go dunno
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-24-2007, 02:58 PM
well they get on my nerves too occasionally but they do know some things
and we all have our own opinion
i love the 'pbu pipe' but most people here will say bad things about
the pipe is bad azz, no doubt
schofell84
10-24-2007, 02:59 PM
no, no, no, no. bigger is not always going to create more power. if that was the case race engines wouldnt have headers (none is the biggest possible right?) sure bigger will get you more power in alot of applications but the perfect exhaust is designed to flow a certain volume of air (limited by engine design) at a certain velocity. it gets even more complicated but im tryin to simplify thing "for the kids."
you dont know me, or any of us for that matter. chill.
oh,nutty i meant the 5th picture ... unless you edited it? ha
good pipes go from whatever size the port on your head is to big to bigger then to smaller to allow for some back pressure... i dont want to get my self to deep here, all im saying is smaller is not better, and how schof***ck "smaller is better in alot of cases" is totally off and i dont think #84 doesnt know a damn thing either seeing as how he runs open header when he "races". what ever that means.... thumb_down
ok now your making sense schofel... its really for your application, higher rpm you want less restriction, lower rpm's more restriction. sorry im steamed but you really tell people there wrong like that it really is rude im also quiting smoking so that as well makes me very irritable... very irritable banghead banghead
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 03:15 PM
its the shape that gives it the velocity, every aspect of an upgraded exhaust is that its bigger to allow more air to escape faster.................schofell & #89 or what ever dont know sh*t
Doc chill0197 Schofell knows a lot more than you think. I meant this as a engineering discussion so everybody chill0197 !!! Yes we're all talking larger size. I mean larger to larger. There is a point at which a certain size pipe will increase velocity...what is it? And then stepping up from there to even larger sizes gives you a power increase over a one size pipe system. If it didn't work Formula one would not be using it. They have probably spent millions finding out what we can look at after the fact and steal the research thumbsup2 .
sorry again for my own rude comments....thanx for letting me vent my anger here guys.....sorry you have to put up with me but i would like to think my education isnt for nothing....
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 03:17 PM
OK everyone is playing together nice bluelaugh I was typing when youbluelaugh guys anwered each other. Let's talk...damn that sounded like Hillary and I really can't stand the censor_d OK I'll get back to business.
thanks P you rock ive said that from day one... im afraid your last Q is past my range... im not an engineer... but good luck... ill be watching this thread to see how it go's... smokin_pimp
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-24-2007, 03:51 PM
thats why i dont try to break down the how and why too much
i just ooo and aaah
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 03:52 PM
thanks P you rock ive said that from day one... im afraid your last Q is past my range... im not an engineer... but good luck... ill be watching this thread to see how it go's... smokin_pimp
Dude I ain't either but that doesn't mean they know more than we do. Sometimes real world beats the lab everytime. Racing proves that everyday. I heard of more than one homebuilt that's smoked a million dollar lab bike. Doesn't happen often but it still happens.
55IsABigLie
10-24-2007, 04:24 PM
ASE certified? Cool! More expertise around means we can all get nastier and nastier on our bikes!! pimp1
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 04:38 PM
ASE certified? Cool! More expertise around means we can all get nastier and nastier on our bikes!!
What he said thumbsup2 thumbsup2 thumbsup2 thumbsup2
good pipes go from whatever size the port on your head is to big to bigger then to smaller to allow for some back pressure... i dont want to get my self to deep here, all im saying is smaller is not better, and how schof***ck "smaller is better in alot of cases" is totally off and i dont think #84 doesnt know a damn thing either seeing as how he runs open header when he "races". what ever that means.... thumb_down
ok now your making sense schofel... its really for your application, higher rpm you want less restriction, lower rpm's more restriction. sorry im steamed but you really tell people there wrong like that it really is rude im also quiting smoking so that as well makes me very irritable... very irritable banghead banghead
i dont know what makes you thing im a "kid" but i really do know what im talking about. i have rebuilt several engines from pontiac v8s to yamaha kart engines to these china motors. i know what im doing.
i run only the header when i am racing because noise is not a concern and it feels a little faster. i ride around in my neighborhood also and cant have the neighbors calling the cops.
schofell84
10-24-2007, 07:34 PM
meh, look up some porting and exhaust tuning info if you dont believe me. im also going to college for motorsports, and i already have my degree in automotive. im not trying to make fun, what your saying makes alot of sense, but thats not always the case in the real world. i thought the same way as you but just keep an open mind, theres some amazing stuff out there.
an open mind is your biggest tool.
(to schofell) its cool i trust you. i totally agree with the last thing you said... it was the first thing i disagreed with...just so long as you know what im saying is true! and you understand i know what im talking about when it comes to engines(except 2smokes i know how they work just not enough to tune'um)...i am def more of a car guy(right now)... hoping to change that... so far ive got engines, brakes, suspension, ASE's and this nov. ill have electrical, manual trans., and maybe auto trans... rock2 sorry again for the harsh words just next dont tell someone who's spent alot of time and energy with engines YOUR WRONG. like you said keep an open mind...
The Nutty Professor
10-24-2007, 08:09 PM
If we could put the two of you on a engine project by the time you were done it would burn the tires off a Mid bluelaugh bluelaugh
schofell84
10-25-2007, 06:53 AM
yeah, that requires money ... something im severly lacking. haha
rednek01
10-25-2007, 08:01 AM
thats why i dont try to break down the how and why too much
i just ooo and aaah
Haha That is probably one of the funniest things I have read!!! bluelaugh
The Nutty Professor
10-25-2007, 10:41 AM
thats why i dont try to break down the how and why too much
i just ooo and aaah
You know what I would kill to see? Blitz throwing his bike into the first turn at VIR in a crowd of other bikes. A backward facing camera and mike. It would go like this OOOO...AAAAAHHH...OOOHHHSHIZZLE speechless33 OOOHHHSHIZZLE speechless33 DAMN THAT WAS BITCHIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blitz you know I'm funnin I'm just hatin'...you go and I stay home banghead
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-25-2007, 02:28 PM
too bad you cant come watch one day glenn
i know me and S will have vids tho
i need to go weld up my camera mount
and uh im not throwing my bike in any turn just yet
The Nutty Professor
10-26-2007, 08:52 PM
What is the best material to fabricate a header from? I believe carbon fiber and titanium are the best for the pipe. Well speak up.
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-27-2007, 04:00 AM
ask hooker bluelaugh bluelaugh
The Nutty Professor
10-27-2007, 07:29 PM
ask hooker
Boy was I slow on the uptake I looked at your answer for about five minutes thinking how I would ask you what the hell you were talking about. Then idea_smilie You know something Blitz you ain't right crazy_smilie bluelaugh bluelaugh
Blitz$M.Inc.$
10-28-2007, 04:28 PM
hooker headers silly
The Nutty Professor
10-28-2007, 06:28 PM
hooker headers silly
Yeah right rolleye0010
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